Curse

Thom Bangalter · Oct 22, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

100% agreed. However, just auto attacking is fairly significant damage on it's own. Furthermore, there are at least a FEW spear skills beyond wild throw that will be kind of good. however, just running around yelling crap is going to be both fun, and effective.

Patccmoi · Oct 22, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Not a ton of mobility, aoe melee, some conditions....I don't really get them.

Just a question, how are Dervishes lacking in mobility? They have better running skills than warriors (look at Harrier's Haste and compare it to Sprint...)

Their ability to stack conditions on a single target quickly is greater than any other class except assassin combos (something like Leaping-Temple-Twisting for example), but they don't rely on any combo to achieve it. Take for example a D/R with Apply Poison, Sandy Grip, Wearying Strike, Armor of Thorns and Pious Assault (or any enchant removal). You can just do Wearying Strike every 2s to do Blind-Poison-Deep Wound on someone, and you can do Armor of Thorns to add Cripple and remove it with a skill (tons are there for it) to add bleeding, so you have someone blind, crippled, deep wound at -7 degen... that can be an easy kill afterwards! The main difference is Dervishes main conditions, which are Deep Wound and Cripple (they can spread these more than any other class), instead of poison/bleeding like rangers, and they also have access to the most spammable blind with Sandy Grip.

I agree that it's hard to say right now exactly how they will fit, especially before seeing their last skill balance, but they have a lot of potential atm imo, despite what people seem to take for a fact when it makes no sense, like Dervishes are bad spikers when they have a 5E/2s recharge non-elite Eviscerate on a weapon significantly surpassing Hammer for crit damage, fairly spammable +40 damage attack skills and 33% IAS skills... how can they spike bad if you spare 2-3 slots for it, like warriors with Evis-Exec-Frenzy? The rest can be used for utility, which is different than what warriors have to offer with various condition spam skills, enchant control, and even very strong healing abilities. Not saying it's better, but it's different and i don't think at all sub-par. Comboes like Harrier's Haste + Harrier's Grasp can be devastating in a backline, especially with warriors allies that take advantage of the fact you're crippling everything to frenzy away on target that you can keep permanently in Deep Wound.

Thom · Oct 23, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Warrior argument comes down to flexiblity. You can create several "uber" combos that include a 4 skills--give elementalists or mesmers 4 skill combos and you can get some pretty crazy stuff. Therefore saying that assassins have great killing power over 4 skills is particularly unimpressive. While 4 seconds is nice for a one man spike, it is hardly a spike if you are attacking any monk support.

The concept of Adren spiking is that 3-4 players release killing damage on one target in a 2 skill cycle. Now if you already have a spike threatening spike in place assassins can really hurt a second target. When everyone else spikes they are relying on 1-2 skills. In many ways a monk with an enchantment removal is more helpful on a primary spike than a standard assassin.

After a warriers adren spike (2 skills 0 energy cost) warriors have 6 remain skills for IAS, pressure, utility and survival. Everything useful for adren spiking carries over to pressure without cost.

Finally, pressure spiking is the preferred method of doing damage in guild wars since a pressure spike will shatter a good team most efficiently. Most everyone who knows what they are doing and runs "balanced" is running a pressure spike. Warriors provide the best option for pressure spike and therefore will not be replaced. Assassins can support a pressure spike, but normally are included for ganking flexiblity. Paragons will definitely have strong support role in pressure spike, but it will likely focus on defensive support. Dervish's pure offense doesn't scare me, but they're flexiblilty could take the spot of "utility first" warrior.

Blow Up Doll · Oct 23, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I disagree on your statement about paragons being very specialized characters that will be rarely run. Not running a paragon is going to be like not running an ele with heal party. Unstrippible party wide
buffs and gobs of energy to fuel it? Yes plz.

Sorry... maybe i phrased that badly. What i am trying to say is that running a primary paragon may be less likely in a normal build (somewhat like a rit but more comman) but common as a secondary on rangers or warriors or support characters.
The energy management for shouts that they have is nice... but is it really enough for a few support skills that could be managed by a ranger with expertise or an ele with ep?

ogami_ito · Nov 09, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

So now that people are playing more with the Derv and Paragone, any new opinion on this thread?

Thom Bangalter · Nov 09, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I still stand by my statement. I have no clue what dervishes do, but they can deal a lot of damage and require a lot of team support to be effective, while paragons rock on any team.

Neo-LD · Nov 09, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Paragons are very good but are not even close to being used as "warrior replacements". They are more similar to utility eles than anything else, really.

Sycthes turned out to be ok weapons because of those spammable 1/2s attacks. Best as R/D imo. How good that build is compared to a warrior or rampage thumper is hard to tell, I've been doing some testing and so far Rampage Thumpers (unsurprsingly) seem strongest.

Symbol · Nov 09, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Don't underestimate dervish damage potential. The combo of mystic sweep and eremite's attack are really really good for raising attack speed, because attacks with an activation time can cancel into other attacks. I.e you use a normal speed scythe attack and hit mystic as soon as you hit immediately starting another attack without going into the recoil animation.

Victorious + Mystic + Hit + Eremite's + Hit = 5 scythe attacks in 5 seconds. It's really a huge amount of damage. The problem is energy of course. I've been playing with zealous vow which takes care of that problem nicely, but it is rather inflexible. The main problem with such a character is the amount of support they need. Fortunately dervish armor isn't that horrible, with a blessed insignia you're at base 80AL under an enchant (you should have at least two up at all times) which is about as good as a hammer warrior.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 10, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

He said they do a lot of damage, but aren't overly flexible.

I like derivshes in a gank situation. However, from an 8v8 standpoint Paragons are insanely more useful.

Evls Pwn · Nov 10, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If your argument is that sins simply have different roles than a warrior, then I will make the assertion that those roles are 90% less useful than warrior's roles. Ganking is their specialty and Im not about to deny them that. I cant see the justification for a sin being that he can spike off targets, since off-target spiking is generally less useful than on-target spiking, and I could just get another warrior to spike the off target just as well. As for exerting pressure... pressure and assasin dont belong in the same sentence. Coward sins, Shove sins, pick-an-elite sins, none of them are in the same league as warriors.

All of this is complicated by the fact that sins that try to be better at spiking or pressuring lose many of the tools that make them excellent gankers. So Im really, really not buying this 'sins are as good as warriors just different' argument.

Not sure what your smoken.... Shove sin >war. Kd+3 cond+ spike +kd (rinse and repeat)

Evls Pwn · Nov 10, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I still stand by my statement. I have no clue what dervishes do, but they can deal a lot of damage and require a lot of team support to be effective, while paragons rock on any team.

Dervish has a pretty good survivabiliy as long as it isnt getting screwed over by a mes, but they definetly need support in the cond/hex removal area.

furbat · Nov 11, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

About the 2 skill adrenal spike comment. What two warrior skills do more damage than Chilling Victory + Reapers strike? Assuming one reapers strike will hit at less than 50%.

The problem i find with dervish skills, is while very damaging the slow attack speed of scythes. But with Chilling Victory + Ermites + Reapers strike, you can get off 3 attacks in the time of two.

Skuld · Nov 11, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Dervish are too slow attacking even with heart of holy flame or something, and don't have any KD to compensate for the slowness. They're good against inexperienced teams because you can kill 3 times as fast. Avatar of grenth is pretty wicked :]

Neo-LD · Nov 11, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evls Pwn

Not sure what your smoken.... Shove sin >war. Kd+3 cond+ spike +kd (rinse and repeat)

Sorry kid, Shove Sins suck. Come to think of it, just about all non-ganker sins suck. They deal laughable damage between combos, and their combos are so slow and long that they are easily saved by monks that are even the slightest bit awake.

Symbol · Nov 11, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Dervish are too slow attacking even with heart of holy flame or something, and don't have any KD to compensate for the slowness. They're good against inexperienced teams because you can kill 3 times as fast. Avatar of grenth is pretty wicked :]

Dervishes attack at the same speed as hammers. Furthermore dervishes have two 3/4sec activation, 4s recharge attacks, unlike hammers.

Patccmoi · Nov 12, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

I'd also say Warriors have nothing comparable to Harrier's Grasp + Wearying Strike spam in Avatar of Melandru. That's like doing Eviscerate with a higher damage weapon every 2s that cripples moving targets. With 15 Mysticism/13 Scythe/7 Wind it's quite scary overall and pretty huge pressure, and with 75s duration your Avatar is really fine.

Dervishes aren't a direct replacement for warrior as they don't have exactly the same role, but i think they can do their job very well in fight. The best place i saw them personally is in hex-heavy teams where imo they're actually better at pressuring than warriors since DW spam is very powerful there and they can use Rending Sweep which will remove an enchant from a hexed target with 4s recharge. This gives them insane enchant control while damaging and can allow them to remove Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond from their target without a problem. Avatar of Grenth is really wicked too, especially with Twin Moon Sweep and Wild Blow, which will remove the stance from your target and up to 3 enchants, leaving it totally defenseless.

I'm not gonna restart arguing on sins again, but i really can't agree with all that garbage about them out of ganks hehe. Just check the auto-attack damage of a sin and you'll notice that it's higher than a sword when you consider the double strikes... With Paragons now giving everyone +20AL, they're not even soft anymore.

Skuld · Nov 12, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Dervishes attack at the same speed as hammers. Furthermore dervishes have two 3/4sec activation, 4s recharge attacks, unlike hammers.

I know. But with hammers you render them immobile with KD, unlike scythe :]

Byron · Nov 12, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I'm not gonna restart arguing on sins again, but i really can't agree with all that garbage about them out of ganks hehe. Just check the auto-attack damage of a sin and you'll notice that it's higher than a sword when you consider the double strikes... With Paragons now giving everyone +20AL, they're not even soft anymore.

Warriors have much more flexibility in their roles. You wouldn't take an assassin over a warrior much in the same way you wouldn't take a ritualist healer over a monk.

0mar · Nov 12, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

We've been using Dervishes as thumpers on roids. Load a couple Dervishes up with a few enchants, get into the midline and do Mystic Twister (~100 cold damage in the area), and then spike basically any target, as 3-4 guys will be down to 2/5 health.

furbat · Nov 12, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0mar

We've been using Dervishes as thumpers on roids. Load a couple Dervishes up with a few enchants, get into the midline and do Mystic Twister (~100 cold damage in the area), and then spike basically any target, as 3-4 guys will be down to 2/5 health.

I just started messing around with a build using eremites + mystic sweep + victorius strike + wildblow and the zealous elite in wind. Pretty crazy to spam two 3/4 activation attacks every 4 seconds while gaining mana on hit at 15 scythe 14 wind. Having a few dervishes spike mystic twister at the same time would be nuts.